Please understand that the FairTax is written to be revenue neutral. Therefore for the sake of argument, if the tax is higher than 30% – that just means that the true cost of government is even more outrageous. The great thing about the FairTax is it reveals the bloated monstrosity of the federal gov’t expenditures. The current system hides the true cost thru payroll deductions and other obuscation devices.
Citizens will not be bamboozled by the tax code if FairTax becomes a reality and woe unto the politician who tries to raise it once implemented.

Right now I pay sales tax as well as income tax for a rough total of about
44% of my income. I would much rather pay a 20-25% sals tax and have 100% of my income. Also remember, the tax is on NEW items, there is no sales tax on used items..like a used car for example.

All of the talking points above are patently false.
And with regard to Mr. Bartlett’s article FairTax, Flawed Tax, he claims the Fair Tax plan originated with the Church of Scientology. He was soundly corrected. He had Americans for Fair Taxation (AFFT) confused with Citizens for an Alternative Tax System (CATS). Needless to say, AFFT and CATS were both very surprised by Mr. Bartlett’s blatant mischaracterization of the Fair Tax plan. He also lacked the integrity and fortitude to publicly admit his mistake, let alone apologize for such poor research on his part. Instead, he’s been on the Fair Tax attack ever since, trying to hide the egg on his face, and evading the scorching letter written to him from Leo Linnbeck, founder of AFFT. That letter provided the research and history of the Fair Tax. It’s all been documented since the inception of Fair Tax.

From that point on, Mr. Bartlett lost any credibility he may have had on this subject. Now I tend to cross check anything he writes.

And where on earth do people come with this added 30% to 89% taxes on all purchases?!? How can any self respecting individual with any integrity spread such falsehoods!? The prices of items will stay virtually the same. One has to understand imbedded taxes, what they mean now and what they mean under the Fair Tax.

People, get the facts. Go to FairTax.org. Call ‘em and ask questions. Or go to fairtaxnation.com. Read the forums, participate and ask questions. You’ll get the facts instead of these insidious and outlandish rumors and allegations.

FairTax is the only thing that can save our economy. Otherwise, it’ll completely derail in 2 to 5 years. We simply cannot sustain the spending with spiraling job losses and debt, flushing jobs out of the country instead of welcoming them in, flushing trillions into offshore tax havens rather than welcoming it back, and putting more money back in the hands of the consumers.

Sorry, I didn’t know it was going to ERASE what was there. “Is this factually inaccurate? Can you write it better? Go ahead and revise this talking point…” That suggests that perhaps I should correct it. I meant no disrespect.

Because the point is just plain wrong.

Sorry, but HR 25 is written as 23%. Brookings Institution published 2 opinion article from 1998 by William Gale. Gale does not mention the FairTax. The 57% was in a memo from Lindy Paull Chief of Staff of the Joint Committe to John Buckley and does NOT specify where the number came from. Treasury Department was NOT referencing the FairTax.
In conclusion, all those high numbers are wrong and people need to stop quoting Bruce Bartlett.

The comments are exactly right, people will hear what they want to hear. People unfortunately at this time in our history listen to fear and not to reasoned factual dialogue. People should take the time to study Fairtax.org, and the leadership behind it. Look at our current tax system, and look at what the long term impact from the “stimulis package” will be when it comes time to pay it off… The same group, the middle class will bear the burden through higher taxes. Keep up the hard work gang, support the FairTax.

Absolutely amazing. Some people have no shame at all. There is a book out called the “Fair Tax” that completely and clearly spells out the fair tax rate is 23 %. Also, clearly explains how the tax works. The same so-called Congress Tax experts says we have a Social Security Fund. Yeah right!!!! Why is Social Security in the red if we got all these trustworthy and honest bureaucrats taking care of everything. Wake up People.

I say if it takes an 89% sales tax to equal the amount needed to fund the government the same as now—then that tells me that it is costing us 89% NOW and if you add up all the taxes we do pay that the FairTax will eliminate—not just payroll taxes and social security and medicare deductions—but people forget and do not see that every product they buy now from a loaf of bread to a house has imbedded invisible taxes by as much as 20%. This also does not take into account that the millions of illegal aliens living in this country that pay NO taxes and the millions of foreign travelers that pay NO taxes will NOW be contributing to our tax system which will lower the taxes needed to pay by law abiding Americans. Wake up Americans…we are paying far more than you think you are paying in taxes! I believe the FairTax with the millions they invested in research with well known scholars and professionals that say a 23% tax at the cash register will be equivalent to the taxes needed to keep up with the ridiculous spending habits of today’s government (that is another comment). But, the FairTax will help every American see at every cash register just how much the government is costing us and with that visibility—hopefully, Americans will get active and vote out those pork-barrel politicians and elect those that can be fiscal with our money. The ISSUE is not 23% or 89%. The issue is what are we actually spending now! I do not think their is a professional anywhere that can answer that question effectively or definitively because it is riddled in 70,000 pages of tax codes and taxes at so many levels of our economy and production it would be almost impossible to accurately say or calculate. All the more reason to pass the FairTax and eliminate all the hidden, corrupt, lobbying taxes we pay now and level the playing field for all Americans and untax the poor, bring back economic prosperity and make America the greatest tax haven in the world so foreigners will start flooding our shores with their investments and coin a new term “in-sourcing” to America.

Right on here.

Nice to see if laid out in plain English. But we’ll still get the people throwing around the 30% tax rate and all the misconceptions they hear on the news

Excellent work OPC. We are getting clobbered now on our taxes. So time for real change. Obama promised change, but we are not going to get the right kind of change. We are just going to get hope and a new version of the dust bowl/ Great Depression.

Making land the prime tax method is a bit strange. I might buy that, but only if the right to vote is then also the exclusive right of land owners only. Otherwise those that do not own land will simply gouge the land owner for tax dollars. The current property tax system in Kansas (where I own a home and land) is already out of control. I paid for my property years ago (through hard work) and have no mortgage or liens. But each month I have to shell out property tax money. Eventually the amount of the tax will exceed my retirement income. We need either the FairTax or some kind of flat tax. The two books written on the FairTax issue (best sellers) were very convincing and articulate. Take the issue of the rich. They made a case about Bill Gates. He gets around 350 million a year in dividends from his Microsoft stock. That gain is currently taxed at 15%. The rest of us pay much more – 30% plus. Bill does not pay Medicare or Social Security (those are payroll deductions). Under the fair tax, when Bill spends his money he gets taxed at 21% and his spending contributes to Medicare and Social Security.
As far as a flat tax system, I would advocate a Citizens Tax. A real simple idea – everyone pays 10 cents on every dollar earned to the federal government. No exemptions no anything. A simple three line tax form – how much did you earn? Multiply by 10%. Pay resulting amount to Uncle Sam. Uncle Sam then funds everything Social Security, Medicare, any planned national health care from that amount. This citizens tax would be fair – equal taxation for rich and poor. It also takes everyone off the dole – no free ride, not earned income credits, no wealth redistribution. Everyone can hold their head high as they will be true citizens paying and participating in their government.

Where do you get these figures?

These figures are BS, hence my marking it ‘unhelpful’.
The 23% inclusive tax rate will fund the government at its current rate.
I have no idea where these ridiculous figures have come from.

DougW, the original talking point was made more then a month ago. Jedi_riccan marked those figures as unhelpful because they are BS.

The arguments made by the brookings ( mental? ) institution are the most ridicules

formatting change

the source link clarifies the comments, the other statements need citations.

Recluse: I didn’t say raising the consumption tax percent could not be done, I indicated it would be more difficult because it involves the total population which becomes a political death sentence for the sponser of that proposal. I know you are a critic of the FairTax idea, but I don’t know what tax system you support. I don’t trust politicians with my money anymore then you do. The reality is the current tax system is too complicated for the average person to fully comprehend. We only comply with what impacts us individually. We have no idea how many loopholes exist in the current tax laws that impact us in a negative way. WHAT IS THE AMERICAN TAXPAYER PAYING FOR? WHO IS ACCOUNTABLE FOR MY TAX DOLLARS? I know the FairTax proposal doens’t answer these questions but I would feel a lot better knowing that I am not being taxed for getting up and going to work in the morning.Yes,you are right, there will be people and organizations that try to beat the FairTax. This is not new. When George Washington imposed a tax on spiruts to finance the Revolutionary War some people went to the woods and produced thier own goods for consumption and sale. There is no perfect Tax mouse trap. But if you look at the big picture, the FairTax will work better than our current system.

Such a wide spread of of the per centage (30% to 89%) can only be a scare tactic by those who make a living on the current income tax mess.

Suppose this were correct. What would it mean if the fair tax actually needed to be that high? Keep in mind of the current taxes covered by the fair tax proposal.

The entire comment is factually inaccurate to begin with. First of all the Fairtax is NOT applied to “all purchases”, only on NEW goods and services. Second, the inclusive rate is 23%. Third, higher rates such as the absurd 89% rate used above are not based on the Fairtax as the bill is currently written, but quoted on guesstimates of a hypotheticsl general national sales tax that is filled with exemptions and inclusions. Fourth, it will will be far more difficult to evade taxes under the Fairtax than it is currently.

Where’s a study to prove your statement? Also, where’s a study to see the effects of your communist land tax on lobbying?

The IRS estimates that income taxes are 40% under-reported. How can things get any worse?

They already are federal tax collectors, 16% to 30% of the price of everything we buy contains the cost of the current federal income taxes. Besides, the Fair Tax Act provides the merchant with .25% to cover the cost of compliance and the State Sales Tax authority gets another .25% to cover the cost of administration. Anyone that owes less than $200/mo is exempt from reporting. Since 70% of all retail sales are done at large retail outlets, reporting is simplified, and compliance is compisated, your fears of non-comliance are greatly exagerated.

Once you get educated on this, and find out the real facts, you will change your mind.

Will everyone at least read the fairtax bill before making comments that get interpreted as fact. Please!!!!!!

If you follow the link to the source (which happens to be FairTax.org) you will find the logical rebuttal to the Brookings Inst. report. How could enforcement of such a simple tax system be more expensive than the whole IRS?

lvtfan…. You claim to have an extensive education yet you don’t seem to understand the basics of economics.

What part of the FairTax plan makes you believe that no one other than the top 2% of earners will be able to save? What research can you provide to substantiate your claims? No matter how much you THINK you understand the FairTax, it is obvious to anyone who has taken any basic economics classes to see the flaws in your logic.

Wow, lvtfan. I read the article you linked do. Are you really suggesting that shifting the entire tax burden to property taxes would be more fair than the FairTax? The first thing that comes to my mind is the farming family whose farm has been in the family for generations and who is even now looking at losing the family farm because they can’t pay current property taxes on it, much less the burden that would be imposed in a system like that.

I don’t think the FairTax fans here are “religiously” following what we’ve heard. We’ve read articles and looked at facts and find it to make sense. I just haven’t heard anything from the opponents which convinces me otherwise. Most of the points opponents have seem to be either based on false assumptions, flat out wrong, or balanced out in other areas. I am not saying the FT is perfect, just better than other options I’ve seen, and certainly better than our current system.
Please understand, I am trying to maintain a civil debate here, and I would ask that others either for or against the FT not resort to personal attacks or insults on others’ intelligence.

To the comment on the FT being like shifting from taxing the entrance of a room vs the exit, it would seem that way on the surface, but if you look closely, you’ll see that it’s not exactly. In our current system, there are many people who do not pay taxes and should. Take for example the drug trade. Do you think they report their income to the IRS? It is obviously an area where a lot of money changes hands, but they are not taxed on the income. However, those drug dealers certainly do spend the money. They would be brought into the realm of the paying the tax burden under the FairTax because they would be paying their taxes when they bought their cars, boats jewelry, homes, etc. Also look at the illegal aliens. Some of them pay payroll taxes, but many do not, being paid in cash under the table. They still would be paying taxes when they spend money here though. Same goes for tourists visiting from other countries. All of these groups of people currently spending money here would be brought into the tax base.

Speaking of people from other countries, currently, many American businesses are outsourcing or moving business operations to other countries due to high taxes here. America would go from being an exporter of jobs (including the beloved auto industry workers) to having every foreign business wanting to move their factories here! They wouldn’t have to pay income tax for the money they make here, Americans would fill the jobs in their factories and offices, and America would still collect taxes from the money made by those businesses through their workers (foreign employed American workers, or foreign workers living here) spending money here.

In regards to encouraging borrowing vs encouraging saving, I think the latter would result in a more stable economy. It was all the borrowing that got us into this economic mess! Besides, saying that you are discouraging spending with a sales tax is the same as saying you’re discouraging receiving income by having an income tax. People will still spend because they still want the stuff! In the immortal words of Bernadette Peters in The Jerk, “I don’t mind losing all the money, it’s all the stuuuufffff!” When people save, they aren’t just putting their money in the mattress anyway. They are investing in the economy. People are saving at the lowest rate ever, which is why our system will be stressed even more when all these non-savers get too old to work and have to be supported by the rest of us. If they had saved/invested all their lives, they would still have enough money to support themselves in retirement and there would be less need for all the government programs!

Do your research. It would not do that at all. There is a prebate for the basic neccesities of life. Plus, there is roughly an embedded 22% tax in the product itself to comply with the current system before you even see the register. Prices would stay around the same domain they currently hold.

NO! You need to read “The Fair Tax Book” and “Fair Tax: Answering the Critics” by Neal Boortz and Congressman John Linder. If you read these books with an open mind, you will come to find that the cost of all goods will first drop by about 25% inclusively. Now add The Fair Tax in at 23% inclusively and we will still pay about the same for our products. However, we will ALSO be taking home our ENTIRE paycheck with NO TAXES taken out! The Fair Tax is the way to go!

So, under your communist land tax system, the government would ultimately own all of the land and “rent” it to whoever used the property to their liking… All of this would be policed by a government run homeowners association… Yeah… that’ll go over like a turd in a punch bowl….

Rubicon obviously was government school educated. 23% from 100 equals 23 cents inclusive tax, you have to compare apples to apples, not to oranges. The current income tax code is an inclusive tax and so is the proposed Fair Tax. When the Fair Tax is enacted I think you will see state sales taxes changed to inclusive taxes as well which means it will be built in to the purchase price not added on later. You already pay an inclusive sales tax when you buy a gallon of gasoline, so it’s not that difficult to extend it to everything we buy.

barry, rubicon marked the talking point unhelpful because he probable agrees with you.

Shomas,
As I would have expected, you are on point.
Barry34785,
I fail to see why you feel that all government school educated people are ignorant. The fact that I agree with you even though you can’t seem to understand that, and following your apparently flawed logic, I could devise that non-government school educated people can’t use deductive reasoning to uncover other people’s intentions. Good day.

If the goal is to be revenue neutral and the tax system will retain approximately the same level of progessiveness as the current tax system, what difference does it make what the final rate ends up being? It is simply a reflection of the amount of taxes WE ALREADY PAY!!! The taxes now are just split up under many different line items and intentionally hidden from taxpayers. The FairTax would allow taxpayers to see the tax and choose how much of it to pay by choosing how much they consume. The debate over the rate of FairTax is truly a debate over how much we should be taxed. From your argument, it would appear you think we are overtaxed.

AaronSW: What do their kids do with the money when it is given to them? Spend it. Which point they would be tax payers. And why do you think that the estate tax is ok? If someone earns money and pays taxes on those earnings, why should they be taxed again just for dying?

Do the math. After the embedded income taxes are removed, the prices of goods and services would remain nearly the same with the FairTax as they are now. The low- and middle-classes will have their entire paycheck plus the prebate to spend or save as they see fit. How does this not put the low- and middle classes in a much better position than they are today?

more clear

Regardless of what the percentage winds up being, it is there for all to see with the FairTax Act.. now you don’t know what you really pay in taxes because of corporate taxes and the Employer Matching Funds tax (50% of FICA paid by those mean old employers).. people should call their reps at 1 877 SOB U SOB (1 877 762-8762). Somehow, I find the number quite appropriate…

tired of a lies and misrepresentation being forced to the top with out being corrected

So, do you think that the people making all of those “really really big incomes” are just keeping that money? No. They spend it.

right – the people “at the bottom” will get the prebate, and whatever they spend beyond that will be taxed as equally as those “at the top.” What is so great about the FairTax, however, is that those at the bottom are already spending less, and therefore they bring home a larger income and are able to pay bills, etc. Those at the top who have always spent more will be paying more taxes than those at the bottom, of course; but even they won’t be taxed more if they decide not to spend as much.
It also takes into account demographics: people at certain age levels and with different roles throughout their lives will spend according to what their paycheck brings them.